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	<title>Comments on: MARRIAGE IN POST-LAWRENCE v. TEXAS AMERICA</title>
	<link>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/</link>
	<description>E AHO LA'ULA</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 03:41:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: bryan</title>
		<link>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-46</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-46</guid>
					<description>I posted a comment to Dean's blog (in a more recent post) about the differences between a Christian marriage and a &quot;state&quot; marriage. Christian marriage is &quot;supposed&quot; to mean much more than two people committing to one another. Weird how great minds think alike. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I posted a comment to Dean&#8217;s blog (in a more recent post) about the differences between a Christian marriage and a &#8220;state&#8221; marriage. Christian marriage is &#8220;supposed&#8221; to mean much more than two people committing to one another. Weird how great minds think alike. <img src='http://markhasty.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />
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		<title>by: Dean Esmay</title>
		<link>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-47</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-47</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;The &quot;slippery slope&quot; fallacy has been trotted out numerous times since last Thursday, with the usual suspects asserting that striking down sodomy laws will eventually lead to Americans being forced to accept domestic partnerships between two men, five women, and a small herd of pygmy goats. Listen: Just because a line is difficult to draw doesn't mean it is impossible to draw. &lt;/i&gt;

I agreed with everything you said until you said this.

I do think that it is quite inevitable that the sanctioning of gay marriage--if it is done by the courts--will, in fact, lead to polygamous/polyandrous relationshiops and other exotic relationships being so sanctioned. In fact, I think it's foolish to deny that this will happen. Because if marrying anyone you want regardless of gender is a &quot;Constutitional Right,&quot; then the ability to resist other odd combinations in the courts will be virtually nil.

I didn't say that was a bad thing. But I'm astonished that anyone thinks it's not an inevitability.

If gay marriage is passed by legislation, perhaps not, but if manded by the courts? How can it possibly not be stretched further?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The &#8220;slippery slope&#8221; fallacy has been trotted out numerous times since last Thursday, with the usual suspects asserting that striking down sodomy laws will eventually lead to Americans being forced to accept domestic partnerships between two men, five women, and a small herd of pygmy goats. Listen: Just because a line is difficult to draw doesn&#8217;t mean it is impossible to draw. </i></p>
<p>I agreed with everything you said until you said this.</p>
<p>I do think that it is quite inevitable that the sanctioning of gay marriage&#8211;if it is done by the courts&#8211;will, in fact, lead to polygamous/polyandrous relationshiops and other exotic relationships being so sanctioned. In fact, I think it&#8217;s foolish to deny that this will happen. Because if marrying anyone you want regardless of gender is a &#8220;Constutitional Right,&#8221; then the ability to resist other odd combinations in the courts will be virtually nil.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t say that was a bad thing. But I&#8217;m astonished that anyone thinks it&#8217;s not an inevitability.</p>
<p>If gay marriage is passed by legislation, perhaps not, but if manded by the courts? How can it possibly not be stretched further?
</p>
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		<title>by: Vidiot</title>
		<link>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-48</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-48</guid>
					<description>The more I think about this issue -- and I've been doing a fair amount, post-&lt;i&gt;Lawrence&lt;/i&gt; -- the more convinced I am that the European model is the way to go.  By &quot;European model&quot;, I mean having civil marriages almost exclusively, with some opting for church ceremonies.

There are real government interests in safeguarding and promoting the institution of marriage.  However, those interests don't dovetail with limiting that institution of marriage to certain groups while excluding others.  Equal protection under the law, remember?

I'd love it if, governmentally speaking, &quot;marriage&quot; was replaced by &quot;civil union&quot; or whatever you want to call it.  Instead of getting your marriage license, go down to the courthouse, certify in front of a witness that you're married to or in civil union with someone, pay your fee, and that should be it.

If you want to get married in a church of your choosing, fine.  (for instance, I want to get married eventually, and I want it to happen in a church because I believe that making a commitment before God is an integral part of what marriage is.)  But a church wedding shouldn't be what the government needs to certify to itself that you're married.

I believe it's done this way in several European countries -- couples do a quick civil ceremony, and then have the option of doing a religious wedding however they want to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The more I think about this issue &#8212; and I&#8217;ve been doing a fair amount, post-<i>Lawrence</i> &#8212; the more convinced I am that the European model is the way to go.  By &#8220;European model&#8221;, I mean having civil marriages almost exclusively, with some opting for church ceremonies.</p>
<p>There are real government interests in safeguarding and promoting the institution of marriage.  However, those interests don&#8217;t dovetail with limiting that institution of marriage to certain groups while excluding others.  Equal protection under the law, remember?</p>
<p>I&#8217;d love it if, governmentally speaking, &#8220;marriage&#8221; was replaced by &#8220;civil union&#8221; or whatever you want to call it.  Instead of getting your marriage license, go down to the courthouse, certify in front of a witness that you&#8217;re married to or in civil union with someone, pay your fee, and that should be it.</p>
<p>If you want to get married in a church of your choosing, fine.  (for instance, I want to get married eventually, and I want it to happen in a church because I believe that making a commitment before God is an integral part of what marriage is.)  But a church wedding shouldn&#8217;t be what the government needs to certify to itself that you&#8217;re married.</p>
<p>I believe it&#8217;s done this way in several European countries &#8212; couples do a quick civil ceremony, and then have the option of doing a religious wedding however they want to.
</p>
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		<title>by: Mark</title>
		<link>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-49</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-49</guid>
					<description>Dean:

The main reason I think it wouldn't be stretched further is that there would be an immediate grassroots effort to prevent it through legislation, up to and including a Constitutional amendment.  Group marriage almost certainly falls outside most people's range of acceptable lifestyle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dean:</p>
<p>The main reason I think it wouldn&#8217;t be stretched further is that there would be an immediate grassroots effort to prevent it through legislation, up to and including a Constitutional amendment.  Group marriage almost certainly falls outside most people&#8217;s range of acceptable lifestyle.
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		<title>by: Harry</title>
		<link>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-50</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-50</guid>
					<description>I think the issue that may finally force the issue of gay marriage, or gay civil union, or &quot;Non-Heterosexual Contractual Ajoindering&quot;, will be health insurance benefits.  Companies are beginning to grant benefits to gay partners of employees.  This is inevitably going to be followed by pressure to grant benefits to heterosexual, but unmarried, partners of employees.  At that point, it either leads to pressure to give gays some sort of civilly-united status, to distinguish long-term partners from short-term girlfriends or boyfriends, or our health care system morphs into a de fact national health insurance plan, with companies bearing the brunt of health costs for whoever happens to be in the household of an employee at a given time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the issue that may finally force the issue of gay marriage, or gay civil union, or &#8220;Non-Heterosexual Contractual Ajoindering&#8221;, will be health insurance benefits.  Companies are beginning to grant benefits to gay partners of employees.  This is inevitably going to be followed by pressure to grant benefits to heterosexual, but unmarried, partners of employees.  At that point, it either leads to pressure to give gays some sort of civilly-united status, to distinguish long-term partners from short-term girlfriends or boyfriends, or our health care system morphs into a de fact national health insurance plan, with companies bearing the brunt of health costs for whoever happens to be in the household of an employee at a given time.
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		<title>by: dan</title>
		<link>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-51</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-51</guid>
					<description>I like your distinction, Mark.  I agree that there is a difference between what is legal and what we would encourage.

I am also interested in the suggestion in the comments that we should separate out the church and state aspects of marriage.  I had a friend who would not sign the paperwork during his wedding ceremony (as is customary here) but waited until after the pronouncment - basically because he didn't want the &quot;state&quot; involved in his marriage.

But I think that if we advocate this stream, the church is losing a unique opportunity to minister to the community at large on the issue of marriage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like your distinction, Mark.  I agree that there is a difference between what is legal and what we would encourage.</p>
<p>I am also interested in the suggestion in the comments that we should separate out the church and state aspects of marriage.  I had a friend who would not sign the paperwork during his wedding ceremony (as is customary here) but waited until after the pronouncment - basically because he didn&#8217;t want the &#8220;state&#8221; involved in his marriage.</p>
<p>But I think that if we advocate this stream, the church is losing a unique opportunity to minister to the community at large on the issue of marriage.
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		<title>by: Kelly</title>
		<link>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-52</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://markhasty.com/archives/2003/07/02/marriage-in-post-ilawrence-v-texasi-america/#comment-52</guid>
					<description>I am living out this situation right now! I am disabled and on medicaid.  Without medicaid I would not be able to survive and the man I love cannot possibly support my life even if her were wealthy he would be poor inside of a year.  I was hit by a drunk driver 15 years ago and require unbelievable medical expenses which have impoverished me which is why I even qualify for medicaid.  This is a terrible and heartbreaking situation because we both are Christians and believe we should be able to get married but because of these financial circumstances we can't.  So what am I to do?  

Kelly
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am living out this situation right now! I am disabled and on medicaid.  Without medicaid I would not be able to survive and the man I love cannot possibly support my life even if her were wealthy he would be poor inside of a year.  I was hit by a drunk driver 15 years ago and require unbelievable medical expenses which have impoverished me which is why I even qualify for medicaid.  This is a terrible and heartbreaking situation because we both are Christians and believe we should be able to get married but because of these financial circumstances we can&#8217;t.  So what am I to do?  </p>
<p>Kelly
</p>
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